Improvisation on Dm7 | Dbdim7 | Cm7

[pingu]

G Bb Db E (A7b9/C7b9) -> C Eb G Bb (Cm7). Two notes the same, and two moving by semitones. Why would it not lead there?
And C7b9 is the V of Fmaj (the relative major of Dm) so I'm not sure I see why A7b9 is the only logical name for that chord.

I think I'll go with your explanation Colin
Thanks

PS I'm not saying anything is right or wrong here
I just prefer Colin's explanation
I'm simple , I like simple

[ColinO]

Seems like you could play F major scale (C mixolydian) over the first two chords and Bbmajor (F mixolydian) over the last two. Add the C# into the mix as you like over the first two as well.

I like simple too.

[ragman1]

Bravo, Sir, nicely played. You could cheer up a bit :-)

Incidentally, I've been checking out various versions (Oscar P, Wes, Bireli L, Metheny, etc) of Insensatez - although I know it's certainly not the only tune with that progression in it. Most of the time they don't bother playing anything fancy over the dim chord, they just kind of doodle over it, even Martino. Some put in a C# somewhere but not many. I can't find a Joe Pass version, he might have done something longer with it.

Try this Getz version. Solos at 1.15 and 2.16.

[pauln]

Dm7 | Dbdim7 | Cm7

Try playing C Lydian Dominant over the Dbdim7.

To get comfortable with the sound you might start out:

High A from the Dm7 into the low C into the Cm7

A G Gb E D C Bb A G Gb E D C

or just A G Gb E D C if time is short

[ragman1]

The other thing, of course, is that the m7 - dim progression occurs in several tunes but it doesn't mean they're all played the same. Whatever is played must be in the spirit of the tune.

I've just done this bit of Insensatez and, being a moody, introspective tune kept it really minimal. The m7 - dim thing occurs twice, once Dm7 - Dbo and later Cm7 - Bo. But if it were a different tune it would probably come out quite differently.

[pauln]

As you may know, C Lydian Dominant = C H/W diminished, except the b9 and the #9 of the diminished have been replaced by a natural 9 in the Lydian dominant.

Lydian Dominant seems to have parts of diminished, augmented, whole tone, melodic minor, and is naturally tri-toney, all this depending on what degree is considered the tonic, and the context of the progression chords.


I try not to "wear it out" because it works in so many situations; I try to save it for when it solves a problem.

[vsaumarez]

Bravo, Sir, nicely played. You could cheer up a bit :-)

Incidentally, I've been checking out various versions (Oscar P, Wes, Bireli L, Metheny, etc) of Insensatez - although I know it's certainly not the only tune with that progression in it. Most of the time they don't bother playing anything fancy over the dim chord, they just kind of doodle over it, even Martino. Some put in a C# somewhere but not many. I can't find a Joe Pass version, he might have done something longer with it.

Try this Getz version. Solos at 1.15 and 2.16.

Was that aimed at me? I'm sorry, do I look miserable? I can promise you that is my normal face my mother gave me. I'm afraid age has a habit of removing one's youthful sparkle.

Yes, you are right about how carefully many great players treat the diminished particularly in certain situations such as How Insensitive. You wouldn't necessarily know they are playing over a diminished and that goes for a lot changes in my view. Pat Martino also does a wonderful rendition and very moving solo (Footprints CD). Judging by the OP's avatar, he is likely into Gypsy jazz, which has a rich diminished vocab and is part of that beautiful sound.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Can I ask another dim (heh) question? What about later in "Insensatez" when the progression is:

|Cm7 | F7 | Bdim7 | Bdim7 | BbMaj7 |

(Sometimes the F7 is Cm7)

You have a delayed 2-5-1, sure, but what do you do? Again besides dim ideas, I think Bb dominant over the dim chord that turns to Bb major -- finally the A natural!

[jordanklemons]

Can I ask another dim (heh) question? What about later in "Insensatez" when the progression is:

|Cm7 | F7 | Bdim7 | Bdim7 | BbMaj7 |

(Sometimes the F7 is Cm7)

You have a delayed 2-5-1, sure, but what do you do? Again besides dim ideas, I think Bb dominant over the dim chord that turns to Bb major -- finally the A natural!

I would pretty much start with the same thing I mentioned earlier but in this new key. I'd probably begin with a G major triad over the B diminished chord... and I'd add the b2 for tension and movement. You could also add the b7 and get a more fully extended G7b9 "arpeggio"... but I'd still focus on the major triad and using the other notes for tension. That than voice leads really nicely to the D minor triad that I would use of the Bb?7.

And all the other stuff previously mentioned also works just transposed down to the Bº7 chord.

[ragman1]

Yup, I'd treat the second dim the same as the first too. Incidentally, in the Getz vid, the piano played

E F (F#) G E D E

over the Dbo, and

Eb F Gb Ab Bb B

over the Bo.

Make of it what you will

[vsaumarez]

Can I ask another dim (heh) question? What about later in "Insensatez" when the progression is:

|Cm7 | F7 | Bdim7 | Bdim7 | BbMaj7 |

(Sometimes the F7 is Cm7)

You have a delayed 2-5-1, sure, but what do you do? Again besides dim ideas, I think Bb dominant over the dim chord that turns to Bb major -- finally the A natural!

I think this is so much about being sensitive to the melody and origins of the tune. I've played with a couple of Bossa guitarists and the approach to harmony and rhythm is different. Chord shapes are different. Stan Getz got it. Most jazzers probably don't. One approach might be to play what would you'd normally play, then cut out half the notes. You could treat the chords individually or treat it as a delayed or extended II V I. Bossas are a great opportunity to stretch out, but don't over indulge IMMostHO.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think this is so much about being sensitive to the melody and origins of the tune. I've played with a couple of Bossa guitarists and the approach to harmony and rhythm is different. Chord shapes are different. Stan Getz got it. Most jazzers probably don't. One approach might be to play what would you'd normally play, then cut out half the notes. You could treat the chords individually or treat it as a delayed or extended II V I. Bossas are a great opportunity to stretch out, but don't over indulge IMMostHO.

The melody doesn't help much: two notes: F, then G and F.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

While it's tempting to see that as a dominant of the Cm, I think I hear it as a dominant of Am, i.e. II7 in the key of Dm (not that it makes much difference).

Yes, the four sisters, E7 G7 Bb7 Db7. Sometimes, when I'm feeling sequence-y, I'll do a E7 motif, say, and move it up (or down) by minor thirds. That movement alone makes it sound diminished.